EU lurches to the left

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Toolsmith
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EU lurches to the left

Can you imagine a major government figure honoring Hitler's birthday and using the excuse that "he influenced history"? Citizens of the EU don't have to imagine. The party for Marx's birthday will be attended by major EU personages...

https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/28934-eu-commissio...

Matt
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Would you object to

Would you object to celebrating the life of, say, Adam Smith, given how much horrific misery has resulted from putting the ideas of capitalism into practice?

Toolsmith
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False equivalence. Nothing

False equivalence. Nothing written by Adam Smith advocated murdering those whose disagreed. Nor is he responsible for the abuses committed in the name of his theories of finance. He had no theories regarding forcibly implementing his ideas. The same cannot be said of Marx. Or Hitler, Lenin, Franco, Mao, Castro, or any of the other leftist and authoritarian heroes still lauded by some.

Capitalism, and the associated free markets, are responsible for the prosperity which allows you to sit there and malign them in comfort that would be considered extreme luxury in any communist paradise. Of course, you'd be killed for doing so in those leftist Disneylands so the luxury hardly matters.

Toolsmith
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Your attempt to justify

Your attempt to justify praise for Marx by making the excuse of " But capitalism!" is duly noted.

No excuse is acceptable. Nor would there be for Hitler. That's the only valid comparison.

Matt
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Toolsmith,

Toolsmith,

You are critical of Marx. Noted. So, was the capitalist system that Marx wanted to overthrow a just system at the time of his writing? Was it one of opportunity for any and all? Do you give it the toolsmith seal of approval?

Toolsmith
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It wasn't, and isn't. Nobody

It wasn't, and isn't. Nobody has ever said it was perfect... just better than any alternative discovered so far. Many adjustments have been made, and still need to be made, to improve it. Freedom is a key element lacking in other systems. Equal opportunity is something I agree with, and too much of the system is tilted against individuals.

That said, a system that DOES state that it's perfect - and uses that "perfection" to justify proceeding to murder 100 million people to enforce itself - is no improvement.

Matt
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Who said anything about

Who said anything about perfection?

But let’s re-phrase it, then, using your term and belief. How imperfect was the system Marx was calling to overthrow? Not ideal, but not that bad, either? Or was it pretty brutal? I’m not talking about capitalism generally, or capitalism today. I’m talking about what was happening in the middle of the 19th century—the specific circumstances that Marx was responding to.

You want to take Marx to task for calling for its overthrow, but why?

Toolsmith
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Marx responded to a system

Marx responded to a system with many in poverty by advocating a system that places everyone in poverty, forcibly. Except the elite of the new system, of course. Leaders of such movements never imagine themselves having just the same share as everyone else.

Capitalism and Free Markets work hand-in-hand to create better conditions. It hasn't been a quick process, but it has happened. The level considered poverty today would have been considered quite well off in the mid-1900s. And that's not even considering the technology today that provides things to everyone that were unimaginable in that earlier time.

Marxism, by contrast, has destroyed everything it has touched. Murdering people to impose its system, and grinding everything to dust with mindless central planning and control. No freedom - and no wealth, only poverty. Again, except for the leaders. The Korean leader lives in luxury, the citizens do not. Only China has become a success, but only by abandoning the collectivism for capitalism and free markets. In China, Communism is only the politics...

Matt
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Blah, blah, blah. Marx was

Blah, blah, blah. Marx was advocating for enforced poverty, except for the leaders of the movement? You are projecting, or clueless.

All the examples of Marxist regimes you cite are cooptations of the concept. It’s curious. Capitalist abuses of peoples are simply exceptions to a good system, while communist abuses are natural outcomes to the system’s essential bankruptcy. You can’t have your proverbial cake and eat it, too.

Melvin Udall
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Wow; those are some cake you

Wow; those are some cake you been eatin', muttsie.

But then, good taste is not one of your strengths.

Matt
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Said the racist

Said the racist

Melvin Udall
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What are you, a doll with a

What are you, a doll with a button on your chest that you push to say one thing?

Economike
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Anyone who believes

Anyone who believes capitalism is a system advocated by Adam Smith understands neither capitalism nor Adam Smith.

Economike
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Matt -

"All the examples of Marxist regimes...."

Matt -

Can you cite an example of a successful Marxist regime?

Melvin Udall
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You must be a racist, E.

You must be a racist, E.

Toolsmith
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It's the pattern, with no

It's the pattern, with no exceptions to date. Every group that implements communism excepts itself from the rules imposed on everyone else. There are no counterexamples to cite. The leaders on the left in America too, even Bernie. They all chirp about how everything should be fair, while they shovel money into their own pockets.

The problem with communism is that it's based on secular humanism. The idea that humankind is basically good, and all the evil comes from external sources. So, if you just eliminate all that and replace it with this perfect system all will be well. Once the system is in place, reality sets in. A system assuming goodness in its leaders has no checks or balances, by design. Tyrants emerge quickly, and consolidate their power ruthlessly, with nothing to stop them. It is a consequence of the design flaw.

Evil in this world comes from US, not from THINGS, or anything else external. Think of it as the impulses of an animal struggling to survive transplanted into a civilized setting. Remove the constraints, and the animal is loose. Any system that ignores this basic fact is doomed. This is why guns are safe in the hands of those who control themselves, and unsafe in the hands of those who never learned self-control. It's not the gun, it's the person. Government is even more dangerous...

Economike
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Mel -

Mel -

Apparently I'm a moron, perhaps lacking the insight to identify racism.

I'm confident, though, that our bloviating scold will helpfully inform me if I start to show symptoms.

Economike
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Toolsmith-

Toolsmith-

Agreed that Adam Smith never advocated force to implement his ideas. In fact, he opposed attempts at imposing a system governing trade.

Of course, you are right to note that communism is militantly secular. However, my interpretation of "the problem with communism" (or, at least, Marxism) isn't secular humanism.

Marx believed that the owners of capital were able to exploit workers by capturing the "surplus value" of their labor. (Both Adam Smith and Marx, as classical economists, believed in the labor theory of value.) Marx's theoretical error in economic reasoning was his assuming away that the ownership of capital involved risk. In effect, Marx believed that profit accrued not from risk-taking but from collecting rent from workers. Marx therefore divided the world into two classes - the bad class (capitalists) and the good class (workers).

Bruce Libby
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It is about time we ask the

It is about time we ask the most important question .
How much lurching to the left takes place before they breakoff and float away?

Toolsmith
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That's a technical glitch. It

That's a technical glitch. It might cause the system to fail. And socialism fails for just this reason.

The deeper problem is that communism pairs that failure with the failure to defend against human flaws... and advocates force to implement its systems. The result has been millions of murders.

Toolsmith
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Is it still there?

Is it still there?

It has a legal system that is unfair, biased, and cruel.
It has an election system designed to enforce one-party rule.
It has a culture that allows no dissent, and forces its views on all citizens.

In what way is it still part of a free country?

Matt
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Udall,

Udall,

Emike hasn’t made racist jokes on this site. You have.

Melvin Udall
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I'm renaming you Mattzine

I'm renaming you Mattzine Waters. If anyone questions, challenges, or disagrees with you, your only response is "you're a racist."

Or you accuse them of "making racist jokes." You saying that is a racist joke of another sort in and of itself.

I sure hope you have a better wig and makeup than she does.

Bruce Libby
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Smegma Mattzine Waters ! Has

Smegma Mattzine Waters ! Has a nice ring to it.
For short in the hood,SMW !

All we need is suggestons for his gamg sign.

Mainelion
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This quote from Thomas Sowell

This quote from Thomas Sowell sums up our resident leftists nicely...

"When people are presented with the alternatives of hating themselves for their failures or hating others for their success, they seldom choose to hate themselves. - Thomas Sowell

Matt
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Udall,

Udall,

I didn’t accuse you of anything. You suggested that police should learn to rap so that the blacks they confront can understand them and so keep from get shot.

For the record.

Melvin Udall
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"That's not my recollection,'

"That's not my recollection,' Mattzine.

NTL, I guess that means you aren't down with the ebonics movement in public schools, which has now resurfaced under a fancier sounding name.

Better get out your white gilt outfit, you oppresser, you.

Economike
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Matt -

Matt -

Let's take a break from your busy routine of chastising AMG's morons and take a look at your attitude of superiority.

I didn’t accuse you of anything.

That's strange. You called Mel a "racist" but you didn't accuse him of anything.

You suggested that police should learn to rap so that the blacks they confront can understand them and so keep from get shot.

In case you don't know, AMG has a search function. Every statement can be located and reviewed. My search for "Melvin Udall" and "rap" turns up nothing resembling your accusation.

For the record.

Yes, the record. Where is it?

Ugenetoo
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Perhaps when Mattybubbles

Perhaps when Mattybubbles reaches high school he might consider taking a remedial reading comprehension course.

It was me that suggested rap for the cops, you dumbass

Bruce Libby
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That should be SMW " you

That should be SMW " you dumbass" .

Melvin Udall
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I can't remember where I

I can't remember where I heard these words, but they seem apropos here.

Mattzine Walters "has made numerous contributions to the African American community, but he sometimes talks out of turn."

"We also think that sometimes Mattzine needs some assistance in helping him to formulate some of his thoughts."

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